The State Of The Mental Health Field “According To Mills”

Phillip Crum: All right, so we’re going to do a special edition of It’s Just Coffee on the topic of the state of owning and operating your own private practice. Mental health private practice. What’s a private practice? Does that mean you’re a group, first of all? Does that mean you’re just by yourself?

Kathleen Mills: I think it’s a little bit expanded but generally speaking mental health professionals are accustomed to the dream of being in private practice and I think it’s kind of morphed into- which is a solo one office, one-stop, one guy, one office, no one else with him – but I think it’s expanded the definition has expanded over the years where private practice includes others. And it still counts as a private practice. You know, a couple of providers renting space from whatever, but they’re still feeling like they have their own store.

PC: Okay. We were talking earlier about the current environment for those who are already in the counseling profession and those who are soon-to-be in the counseling profession. And you had some thoughts. You had some opinions.

KM: Yeah I do. I’ve really been thinking about this for a really long time, you know that.

PC: Yeah so your passion is to inform those that are just beginning or looking to get into this particular profession about the state of the profession and the overall landscape because they’re coming out of college, they’re entering into their practices only half-prepared. They know what to do under supervision. They know which forms to fill in and how to schedule somebody and how to talk to them and so forth, but they don’t have by and large a clue about running the business side of the practice unless they grew up in a self-employed environment and their parents taught them well and so forth. But again, by and large most of them do not have that and why do you think that is?

KM: That’s a great question. I struggle with that every day. But this is how I see it: it’s not necessarily what reality is but the way that I see it is, over the years, I think it’s been harder and harder and more difficult and challenging to continue in the private practice mode. And there’s several variables that are really going fast and furious at this point. One is the healthcare reform, Affordable Care Act – I will be bold and say that has been a killer for the mental health professional. Whether they’re self-pay or they take insurance or whatever.

PC: Now, come on. Aren’t you just saying that because you’re a Republican?

KM: I love my country and I love capitalism, because if it wasn’t for that, we wouldn’t be talking about having a private practice.

PC: So the health care law is only going to affect Republicans though, right?

KM: Yeah, it’s only affecting Republicans for sure. Right.

PC: He said, tongue-in-cheek.

KM: It’s a rhetorical question. Anyways.

PC: One of the earlier points you were making about the environment was the regulations as well as the competitive environment out there – let’s start with that – the competitive environment. How has that changed in the last 20 some odd years that you’ve been in the business?

KM: Well, I don’t know if I’m going to answer the question, but my observation of my profession is very... we tend to isolate from one another. We’re not necessarily a community of encouragers to our community. We’re encouragers and champions of clients but somehow it gets lost in that we don’t encourage, promote, hang out with successful mental health professionals, or even just help other mental health professionals find their voice.

PC: But don’t you get together once a year and have the rubber chicken dinner and give out some award for something?

KM: I guess. I mean, I don’t really go to that. But yes.

PC: That’s not enough, is it?

KM: I don’t think it’s not a daily walk. So I think the mental health profession is not very good at championing our own. We tend to eat our own and that’s really sad to me. So when I talk to people who are starting out, they have great enthusiasm – I love their enthusiasm because it’s just fresh to me. And I love that about them. The thing that I worry about is they don’t understand the obstacles that they’re going to be embarking on. They just don’t know and then when I talk to them, with them, tell them what I can help them with, they go somewhere else. Or they just don’t understand the entrepreneur- you know, when you’re an entrepreneur, you’re also dealing with the federal regulations – the regulations of the universe. So it’s very costly.

PC: Okay, so they’re all linked together and... let’s start with- let’s do this in a chronological order.

KM: Yes.

PC: Their education. And we’re not picking on any one individual or one institution, but overall as the way things are currently done, how in your opinion are they being prepared – how well – in academia, in school, and where are they falling short?

KM: I think academia is doing a tremendous job clinically teaching skills, the skill set. The things that they really need, someone needs to know

PC: About what?

KM: Delivering care to clients. Theories, protocol, that kind of stuff. I mean, the caregiver of actually seeing clients and helping them in their own recovery, that kind of stuff. There’s no question in my mind that colleges do great things with that. The thing that worries me – has worried me since I got out of school and that’s been quite some time ago – there never has been, ever, a focus on the private practice business part of what these people really do need to know. I wish – and you’ve heard me say this before – but I wish I would have been taught that piece before I even launched into my own private practice, which is a group practice and it qualifies I guess as a private practice because it’s not a franchise or anything like that. I wish I would have known some things before I would have started. It’s just, it would help.

PC: Now the business environment we know today is not the same as it was 20 years ago.

KM: Not at all. Not even five or ten years ago, to be honest with you.

PC: So the need for this exposure, this training to the business operations aspect of the equation, is even larger now than it was 10-20 years ago.

KM: Mm hm. Oh, by far.

PC: And they probably should have been doing it back then.

KM: Yeah, the market has changed. It’s not even the private practice that I used to know.

PC: Why do you think that academia is not doing it now? Why are they still not doing it, providing that portion of the education that they know -?

KM: That’s a loaded question. I’m going to be very honest. Number one: they don’t have time. Number two: I think that if they ... I’ve always thought that if they did teach or do a really good business protocol, that would probably decrease their numbers of people who actually want to go to school. Now, with that being said, that could be a good thing in that if I’m a college and I have this business piece on starting a private practice, I think I’d have more people going to that college because you are really equipping them on both ends. That’s powerful pact right there. I remember when I went to my undergrad; I’m a former musician band director. I was a teacher. I was a band director for 10 years in the Lake Islands area. And one of the things that I truly loved about my alma mater Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan was that when it came time for me to student teach, my school was vigilant, veracious, right with me trying to find my student teaching placement with me because I did not want to teach in Michigan. I wanted to teach in Texas. And so there was a great partnership with my professors trying to find a college that would take me as a guest student so I could do my student teaching because I was asked to student teach at Lake Islands high school at that time which you don’t pass that up. You just don’t turn it down. So there was a great, collaborative thing with my professors wanting me to do what I wanted to do and trying to find a guest college so I could do my student teaching here abroad. I wish the masters program colleges who teach counselors would have that veracious quest to if they’re not going to teach it, please point to people who can help them with that piece because they don’t have time. For them to ignore it really bothers me a lot.

PC: But isn’t that a blatant capitalistic statement on your part to make a dollar?

KM: No. You know me – I don’t make anything from this. But it’s time to talk about it. It’s time to really seriously talk about it. Because the thing that’s sad to me is these interns and college students and Ph.D. students come out with a great clinical skill set. They are mortally wounded when they go out and they cannot find a place to practice to get their hours. They don’t understand what’s happening in the world with health care. They don’t understand why they can’t get their 3,000 hours in 18 months, let’s say, because the clients aren’t coming to them? The whole nine yards. And it just bothers me because what happens is their whole enthusiasm just completely caves in and then they get better and then they get discouraged and then they’re pointless.

PC: But you’re running a counter philosophy to the movie. It said if you build it, they will come.

KM: I know. Kevin Costner’s movie Field of Dreams needs to be shredded. It’s not in the profession. It never was. And it truly is not now. You’ve heard my stories of ... I just think that this day and time we need to be very vigilant on our LPC or LMFC Texas State Board of Ethics, not the American Counseling Association ethics. Your state board ethics complaint process – that’s where we need to start teaching people.

PC: Since you brought it up, why not the ACA ethics? What’s the difference?

KM: It’s a blueprint. It’s a blueprint. A blueprint – it’s like, “You know what, counselors? This is a blueprint of how you should – we think you should – behave. What you should think about, what you should do,” which is a wonderful blueprint by the way. I am not disparaging that at all. There’s a disconnect with the teaching of that versus why aren’t you teaching your state licensure ethics? That’s where a lot of people get hung to dry, if you will – I’ve gone through the complaint process seven times. Never in my training was I told about how the complaint process goes, what you’re going to be faced with, what’s going to happen, what shall happen.

PC: Seven times?

KM: Seven.

PC: Does that go to your... man-on-the-street question: Doesn’t that go to your credibility, though? Doesn’t that mean you’re-

KM: Yeah, I’m probably a liability, aren’t I, when I’m talking about that? It’s too easy to get-

PC: So you’ve been-

KM: I can rifle a complaint at any time. That’s this day in time. Your clients will shell, might render a complaint, and you have to be prepared for it. It’s going to happen – it’s just a question of when. I wish the colleges would talk about that.

PC: How simple is it to file one of these things?

KM: Very. Mail it.

PC: Can they do it online?

KM: No. Well, with the HIPA yes. The civil rights department, yes. That’s another bale of hay we haven’t even touched. I’m talking about your board license. Your board license, all one has to do is print out the complaint form that’s on the website and mail it in and, guess what? Whether it’s true or not, you got to go through it.

PC: Do you have any numbers, put you on the spot, what percentage of the claims filed, or complaints filed, are just bogus somebody was mad because they didn’t hear the right thing and how many of them are legit?

KM: I don’t know the percentage per se, but I’m telling you it’s probably way over 50%.

PC: We know the right people to ask, though, don’t we?

KM: Yes, we do. But I will tell you that great pain happens whether it’s frivolous or true.

PC: Well, I’ll just tell them on the phone, “Hey, it’s not really what happened and that’s the end of that, right?”

KM: I’m going to guess – my guess without really knowing, and I follow the stats – but you’re asking me the percentage. I would think 65-75% are thrown out, dismissed, or you don’t get a little thing in your folder.

PC: So again, I’ll just tell them on the phone when they call that it was just a mistake and she didn’t understand and that’s the end of that, yes?

KM: Well, guess what. They don’t talk to you on the phone. We don’t know what it’s going to be now, but right now you have 15 days to respond and then you do the big wait. I know somebody right now who’s going to be testifying tomorrow with her license board and she waited 470 days to get to the testifying part.

PC: What is the normal/average complaint filed day to when it’s all over? Now there’s more and there’s less, but what is the-?

KM: The average is 460 days for LPC and a little plus or minus for the other boards – social workers and LMFTs, stuff like that. It just depends.

PC: If somebody doesn’t like something and just has a burr out of their saddle, you’ve got a year and a half worth of ongoing process to get out of it. Okay so, now back to academia. Let’s do that.

KM: We kind of got off the track, didn’t we?

PC: Now I’m wondering if – and I don’t know this, I’m just thinking through the facts – if the academics would tell you, and we need to ask one, but, if the academics would tell you, “Well when they do the internship, they’ll get that business side exposure.” What really happens?

KM: Well, they will. They will. They will whether they’re ready or not, depending on where they land. And I will tell you my experience is that most LPCN interns are very discouraged. They’re having to wait tables while picking up hours here. It’s like the scarecrow – they feel like the scarecrow. They’re waiting tables to make ends meet. They’re seeing two clients and this place and they’re volunteering over here. And maybe somebody will throw them something over at church or whatever so it’s just scattered all over the place so they can just get their hours. Or if they’re lucky enough –

PC: Well, that’s hours. But I’m saying won’t they get the business operations exposure as an intern?

KM: Well, no. Not really. They’re just making their hours and they’re counting on people to give them clients so they can get their hours. I mean, they’re relying on other people to feed them so that’s their business model.

PC: That used to work, but it –

KM: You feed me. You feed me. You feed me.

PC: You’re saying it doesn’t work now.

KM: It’s never worked. But yes, it’s not working now.

PC: All right.

KM: My opinion.

PC: Well, isn’t it more than just your opinion? It’s your practice. That’s what you’ve seen. You’ve seen that.

KM: Yeah. Right. Sure.

PC: Okay, so a student comes to you, or not a student but somebody looking for a supervisor or you’re just looking to put someone that’s already got their hours on staff and they’re sitting down with you to talk about coming on board in your practice.

KM: After they’re fully licensed? Is that what you’re asking?

PC: Sure.

KM: Okay. Fully licensed. Alright.

PC: So what is the normal capsulize the conversation and where do thing usually end up and why?

KM: Well it’s interesting because, again, they don’t understand the business piece so it’s like the expectation is that I’m going to make a lot of money and it doesn’t cost me – the business owner – very much to have you here. Well, I’m here to tell you it’s not that at all. The percentage is more out of $100, it’s taken me like 65% to run the business.

PC: The overhead.

KM: The overhead.

PC: The lights. The computers. The everything.

KM: The malpractice. The HIPPA compliance. The software.

PC: The telephone.

KM: The hardware. The telephone service. Everything. It’s very expensive.

PC: Of the 65% that you spend on overhead, what’s your largest expense? Do you know? I know you have someone else keep the books for you, but you’re involved in it. I’m just curious if you know.

KM: Well, the rent is expensive. I mean, that’s probably the leasing and I’ve got a pretty good deal to be honest with you.

PC: Your rent get cheaper over the years?

KM: Oh no. It continues to incline.

PC: What about your electric bill?

KM: That’s part of the rental. But again, it’s tied to my lease – it goes up. Everything goes up. Everything goes up up up up. And cash from the client is decreasing so let’s do the math here.

PC: Please. Let’s do the math.

KM: Let’s do the math.

PC: So what kind of a split are they expecting typically?

KM: That’s a great question. I think they’re expecting 65% to them and 35-30% for the practice. It’s more like the other way around.

PC: It needs to be.

KM: And they’re mortified. Well, attorneys get maybe 20% of what they bring in, 25 maybe with a good contract.

PC: In a practice, an attorney’s practice. Yes.

KM: Now, some people say, “Well, they make so much money.” Again, it’s the overhead. It costs a lot to run a practice. It costs a lot to run an attorney’s office. If you go to an attorney’s office and you see all those books, all those research tools, all the things that they have to do, blah blah blah. That’s a chunk of change there. There is a disconnect.

PC: Where do you think they got those numbers? Why do they think that a 65/35 split is what they should be expecting?

KM: I think people are telling them. I know some who are telling. I’m not going to disclose that. They’re saying, “You should get 60% of the take. And you should be able to charge this amount because you have the piece of paper that says you are good.” And I’ll just list basic: supervisors are telling their little interns this. I don’t know if academia is. And I do know other professionals that are touting, “You should get 65%, the agency that you work for should only get 35% of your take because of whatever.” It’s just...

PC: Sounds like they haven’t done their math.

KM: They haven’t done the math. Well, and they just haven’t.

PC: And then they run into you.

KM: Well, some of these counseling centers are also funded with grants.

PC: How is that different than what you’re doing?

KM: I don’t ask for public money. I don’t do grants. This is just a totally different set up. So they have a little bit more cash, but guess what, the grants are going away now. And I don’t know what they’re going to do.

PC: Why are the grants going away?

KM: I’m not sure. I’m just assuming that there’s no federal dollars anymore. They’re going away. We’re $17 trillion in debt and the federal government’s not going to be giving out as many grants

PC: So that’s going to suffer is your point – the grants.

KM: Right. So I don’t know what those agencies are going to do actually.

PC: How is it different working for one of those agencies that gets grant money versus working for a private practice like yours?

KM: Well their overhead is the same but they have other monies coming in.

PC: Oh they have a different cash flow source.

KM: It’s a combination of grant, insurance – which they do take insurance – and some self-pay. And you’re a W2 employee and that licensed individual doesn’t have to worry about anything – they just get a paycheck. What happens in they’re overworked to death because you’re a W2 and it’s not a client-based numbers, it’s more like this is your salary.

PC: And they’ll tell you that?

KM: Yes.

PC: Do you have any of those former people on your staff?

KM: Mm hm. I do. They really like what’s happening at Life Tree.

PC: Alright. So that’s academia and then you already touched on the competitive nature of the medical profession. They’re doing that now.

KM: They are doing that.

PC: Where they didn’t used to.

KM: They have been forced to go into large conglomerate enterprises.

PC: Okay. Overhead for a business – it’s always there and it always will be. Now, the final category that we have on our initial list is the regulatory environment which means, for those of us like myself who prefer to stick to two-syllable words or less, the new laws and the new regulations that are still being discovered in various laws that have been passed that are going to directly impact the mental profession. The regulatory environment, let’s just say it: ObamaCare for the most part.

KM: Yes. The 25,000 page-

PC: Give me a list of the... seriously, give me a list of the positive effects that ObamaCare is going to have on the mental health care profession as you know them. ... Okay, let’s move to the negative effects and I’d like everything that you tell me in reply to this question to be enforceable by looking it up in the affordable health care act stack of paper that comprises that law, okay? So no guessing or opinions and so forth. Can you tell me – start whatever comes to mind – give me a list of things that are going to negatively – going to or even have already – negatively impacted your industry and how it operates.

KM: Insurance premiums are going up 100% per month for a family of four.

PC: Well, but that’s the family. How does that affect you?

KM: They’re not coming in as much.

PC: Why?

KM: Because they have an $8,000 deductible now to fulfill. They don’t have that $8,000 to fill so they’re going to postpone things because they have to meet their deductible first.

PC: So they spent the cash that was in their pockets on their monthly payment. Then in addition to that, if they come see you, there’s a 4-5-8-10,000 dollar deductible now. So you’re not covered, they’ve got to pull that out of the other pocket.

KM: Well, they’re covered but they have to meet their deductible first. Right. So they have to pull the money out of their pocket.

PC: They got to spend $8,000 for example until they start receiving some kind of benefit from that policy. Right?

KM: Correct.

PC: So folks are... not everybody, but by and large there’s a huge, huge chunk of people out there that are going to be cash poor for purposes of coming to see you or any counselor.

KM: Right. Or any medical profession person period. It’s not just mental health professionals – doctors are feeling this, too.

PC: What else? What other negative impacts from ObamaCare?

KM: Well, the regulatory things that are coming down for all medical professionals and mental health professionals are being felt by me now.

PC: Give me an example.

KM: Electronic billing. Private health... client information in the cloud. That’s really being pushed by ObamaCare. So the technology, the extra cost that it- it’s expensive to do electronic medical records. It’s expensive to do online billing through the sky instead of the old paper forms. It’s expensive with the software. It’s just expensive. And then the security HIPPA security I’m involved in doing my risk analysis as we speak.

PC: What risk analysis? What are you talking about?

KM: Well, I’ve got an 8-page spreadsheet that I have to complete and I should have brought it with me to read the list. But anyways, basically it’s to make sure how secure is the information for

PC: Is this something new or have you done this every year for the last-?

KM: No, it’s relatively new. It’s in the last couple years but it’s really being cracked down now. And the way they found me is everybody has a credit card terminal.

PC: What do you mean, “The way they found” you?

KM: Well, the credit card terminal. People swipe their little credit cards. And there’s fraud, credit card fraud. That kind of stuff. Well, when you’re a mental health professional, it registers with the VISA terminal like, “Oh my gosh, they’re a health care professional. We need to get the HIPA people in.” So the HIPA people security-

PC: Oh so you’re just telling me the annual renewal for the credit card processing triggered something at HIPA and here comes the inspectors?

KM: Right. Yeah, just to get a good risk analysis – where are you weak? Where are you, all the kind of stuff? So I have to list all of the technology that I have: software, versions, anti-virus, my phone – how is that secure? How am I securing my phone? People do emails with their clients on their phone and it’s in there. And if your phone gets stolen, that’s a- HIPA’s not going to be too pleased if it gets - that stuff.

PC: So you have to make a list of every electronic thing in your office?

KM: My colleagues. Everything.

PC: Everybody in your office has to list everything.

KM: Everybody. They’re not exempt because they work for somebody.

PC: Computers. Software.

KM: Yes. What laptop? How are you securing it? What’s your plan if your laptop gets stolen?

PC: What software is on your computers?

KM: What software is on your computer, the whole nine yards. Is your computer HIPA compliant with the operating system even?

PC: What about copiers and fax machines?

KM: Yes, I have to list all my copiers, my fax machines.

PC: Everything electronic.

KM: Every electronic piece. So you know, it’s another thing that I think the mental health professional is not ready to really address yet. But I’m encouraging them to- you give me a call if you need to walk through that or because it’s going to hit them.

PC: What about the coffee machine?

KM: Um let’s see. It’s not Bluetooth, so we’re good.

PC: Not yet. Okay, so does that cost you any money?

KM: Uh, yes actually.

PC: How much? I mean, there’s like a fee to go with it?

KM: There’s a fee to go with it. I mean, my first month of doing this it’s about $100 a month until I get all my things in place and then I’m left alone. So I’ve got a security metrics officer that’s helping me and that’s not just because they like me, it’s because it’s for a service and it’s kind of like do I do it or do I not?

PC: And how long does it take you from start to finish?

KM: Well, it’s taken me quite some time, but probably if you’re really diligent about it, it should take about a month.

PC: Every year?

KM: There are some people that it’s taking over six months to do and I’m like, “Oh my goodness.”

PC: You do this every year?

KM: Well, I’m sure I’m going... yeah, well with the VISA terminal yes. Every year I have to answer a bunch of questions and it’s insane. And I have to subscribe, it’s a yearly subscription kind of thing, so I have to do it. It’s part of doing business, right?

PC: Aren’t they teaching this in school now? It shouldn’t be a problem. Okay. Alright, regulatory... so the regulatory environment is just one more thing after another.

KM: Well, it’s getting closer to the individual private practitioner, mental health professional, is going to have to do. You don’t get released by it because you’re working for somebody else. You’re going to have to tell somebody what you’re using and all that technology-wise.

PC: Alright. So what would you advise – I’ve got two final questions for you. The first is what would you advise a student or someone who’s thinking about becoming a student and becoming a counselor? And the second question, and we’ll start with this one, is what do you put on your Nostradamus cap and prognosticate?

KM: You mean, doom and gloom?

PC: What do you think is the future of your profession? Start with that.

KM: I think private practice is a dying breed. I think it’s going to go away.

PC: Go away altogether, or just change/morph into something else?

KM: It’s going to morph into something else, and I think people are thinking that online counseling, distance counseling, whatever you want to call it, is going to save the day. I’m here to tell you it’s not. You still have to market yourself, but I think the regulations and the health care situation has changed so much that our breed of being in private practice is going to go bye-bye.

PC: And you think that based on what you said. You think that because it’s a numbers like everything else. Every great change in our nation’s history, by and large, has been based on- there’s numbers behind everything.

KM: Everything.

PC: I tell my sons, “Life is a math question or equation.”

KM: One big spreadsheet.

PC: “And the numbers will make your decisions for you.”

KM: Numbers don’t lie.

PC: So with the regulatory environment and so forth, things are just being made so impossibly- almost impossibly difficult to stay in business and even if the expenses go up and you’re willing to pay them, you can’t get enough money coming through the front door in a private practice to stay in business.

KM: Well, it’s problematic because it’s happening already and I think if you, again, stay ahead of the curve, try to stay ahead of the curve, anticipate what’s happening in the market – I think we’re really bad as a community really researching the market. I talk about that in my 12 must-haves. You have to research the market before it happens. I started reading the Affordable Care Act as soon as it came out. I read all the Supreme Court transcriptions back in 2010 and what is it – 2014 now? So you know, you have to understand what’s happening business-wise how the government is regulatory.

PC: You can’t just ignore things that are changing.

KM: You cannot. Well, yes you can, and you also have to... you bear the accountability of that. We teach that to our clients every day, and I want to tell the mental health professional, “You have to stay ahead of the curve. You have to do your research. You have to read about your business now. You have to.”

PC: Didn’t I see somewhere, read somewhere... let me think. The mascot for the counseling profession is an ostrich? ... No no no, that was something else. That was another thing. So what would you advise a student or a soon-to-be student about this profession? Are you telling them, “Don’t go into it. It’s just no”?

KM: I want you to go into this because you really want to help people. But you also understand that you have to go into this business with your eyes wide open and start learning business. Not business classes. Find somebody that has been around the block a couple times that knows how to do business things. You need that piece now. You have to.

PC: And that’s not necessarily anybody that has actually leased a building.

KM: Successful business people in the mental health professionals. I don’t care where you are. I don’t care where you have to go, but find them and talk to them. You will learn so much.

PC: Will they talk to you?

KM: Will they talk to me?

PC: No. If I’m a student and I call, will they talk to me? If I’m a student and I call you, will you talk to me?

KM: Absolutely.

PC: People in the industry are open to that?

KM: I hope so.

PC: You are.

KM: I am.

PC: All right. So if a student wants to contact you and ask you a few questions, can they do that?

KM: Yes.

PC: What would be your phone number?

KM: 972-234-6634 ext. 104 – happy to. Happy to.

PC: And they’ll need to leave a message because you’re in sessions quite often.

KM: Yeah I do return calls, and if I don’t return the call it’s just because you know, I screw up. I drop the ball. Please keep calling.

PC: Doesn’t happen. She’ll return the call. All right now. If anybody else listening, a professor this, a legislator that, anybody that takes issue with anything we’ve said would like to talk and rebut, are they invited and open?

KM: Love to have the dialogue. I would love nothing more than that.

PC: Are you available for any speaking gigs?

KM: Yes, I am.

PC: All right. Call the previous phone number. Anything else you want to end with, or are we good?

KM: We’re good. I’m just concerned about our profession.

PC: So you’re not down on the profession or getting into the profession. You’re down on the forward thinking and attitude.

KM: It scares me.

PC: And training.

KM: Yeah. Let me just give you an example, just a takeaway. And I’m going to hone in on this one more time. If you ever go through a complaint process and you watch the process and you sit there and you listen to people who have subject themselves, the licensee, before the board – you learn a lot. If you want to learn about the business piece, I want you to go to a board meeting and sit through the whole day’s worth. You will learn more than I can even tell you. People get complaints because they didn’t know. They should know is what my point is, but they didn’t and guess what? Their lives have been turned over then and back for at least two years. And great peril happens when you get a complaint – no question. So you learn about the business, go to your board meeting. They’ll give you free CEUs, a free day.

PC: How else can I learn – I’m a student – how else can I learn about that side of the business because my school doesn’t offer it? I can take business as a minor.

KM: Sure. That’s not going to help you.

PC: Not much. No. So are there other ways- do you have any other shows? Any other podcasts or recordings or interviews?

KM: Yeah, you just go to our website. Go to on-demand radio podcast library if you will on our blog tab. Scroll down through many things and play it. Play ‘em. You know, we have annual symposiums – it’s coming up in January.

PC: Specifically for that. All right, there are resources so you must avail yourself. Get off the couch, put the game controller down.

KM: I want you to be successful. I don’t want you to fail.

PC: All right. Thank you.

KM: You’re very welcome. Thank you.

PC: Phone number one more time?

KM: 972-234-6634 ext. 104.

PC: And your website.

KM: Lifetreecounseling.com. Go to the blog tab, look at our podcast list.

PC: And I’m still Phillip Crum, the content marketing coach, at contentmarketingcoach.us. Give me a holler. I appreciate you listening, and don’t be shy about calling. This woman will talk to you. Thank you. See you next week.