Liability Coverages For Counselors
Phillip Crum: Well, you’re still Kathleen Mills, are you not?
Kathleen Mills: I am
PC: Yes, well, I’m Phillip Crum-
KM: Hi Phillip, how are you doing?
PC: I’m good. I’m still the Content Marketing Coach.
KM: That’s a relief.
PC: Did you know that John Sutter from Coverica is in the building?
PC: Right there he is.
KM: Happy girl!
PC: Say hi, John.
KM: Hi, John, how are you?
John Sutter: Just fine. How are you doing today?
KM: I am well. You are the Director of Agency Development at Coverica.
JS: Yes, I am.
KM: And Coverica is the premier Dallas insurance agency that specialized in commercial, personal, life and health insurance solutions. And Coverica has a very long history of protecting its clientele ranging from Dallas business owners, families, to multi-state, multi-national corporations. And I’m all about protecting the little guy.
JS: We are, too.
KM: Thank you, sir, for coming today. So tell us a little bit about you and then we’re going to rock and roll into monkey business and bad bananas.
JS: Alright. Let’s see, I’ve been married for many years to my wife Lisa. I have two daughters and two grandchildren, which I’m trying to figure out how you jump over the children part to get to the grandkids because they’re great.
JS: I’ve been in the insurance business for 36 years. I am a chartered property casualty underwriter, and I have an associate risk management degree. I’m licensed to do both property and casualty, and life and health in the state of Texas. I am also a Texas-licensed risk manager.
KM: Wow. You know a lot.
JS: In my spare time, I work with some non-profits and I try to stay busy. I’m also a city councilperson in Carrollton Place 7.
KM: Are you? Wow. That’s kind of nice.
PC: You’re a city councilman?
JS: I am indeed.
PC: Really? Do you do any traffic ticket work, or-? Oh nevermind.
JS: (Laughs) I can’t get into that right now.
PC: Nevermind. What are we going to talk about today?
KM: We’re talking about monkey business and bad bananas, darn it. Malpractice liability insurance and other insurance coverages that I think our profession, mental health professionals, need to kind of be aware of. I experienced, on the dark side, understanding that my $300 generic malpractice liability that said $1 million / $3 million on the cover sheet and the case of defending a complaint was totally not the case.
JS: Yeah the issue with any kind of insurance policy, but with professional liability in particular, is that you really have to understand what the coverage is and what you’re buying. To a certain degree, you do get what you pay for.
KM: You get what you get, right?
JS: There are policies that are written by associations and they are, for the average person, the average professional if it’s a professional association, they’ll put together all of those and they’ll have a good generic policy at a very competitive rate. The problem is will it give you all those coverage enhancements that you might ultimately need, and for the most part the answer is no.
PC: The problem is they let the marketing department in on that development and they want to sell policies so they leave a lot of things out just to make the price attractive.
KM: Well if I belong to a professional’s association, surely they would point me in the right direction, right?
JS: We would hope so. But they’re trying to provide a service. The problem is that, as Phillip just said, they have to make the price affordable. And if it starts to inch its way up because you’re putting coverage enhancements in, then you’re going to have an issue. The other thing is that they’re doing a group policy. You do have claims, and so they’re trying to walk that fine line between how do we keep the price reasonable, pay the claims that we’ve had in the past, keep it all profitable for the insurance company that we have a partnership with, and that may be the other thing – are they getting any kind of override on the policy or anything like that? That sometimes happens, which is not a bad thing in itself, but all of those pressures kind of come to bare, and what you get will be a decent policy at normally a very competitive price. But these may not serve your needs.
KM: Well, at the end of the day is it doesn’t cover anything is what I’m kind of saying, at least in my mind. My personal experience going through lawsuits, eight complaints, and other things. There was no defense coverage. There was no attorney by my side that my malpractice insurance was willing to give me the time of day for. That was the one I was using.
JS: What happens is that with professional liability, and you start out with the very narrow definition of what’s going to be covered, and that would be something within the scope of your professional services that you either didn’t do something that you should have or you did something that you should not have. And they’re standing there to defend you for that, but a lot of it will determine when the claim comes in what does the other party allege? And if they allege, as attorneys do, several different things and they always allege something covered by your policy. To get the defense under the policy, at least one of those items that they allege against you has to be covered by the policy. And if it’s not then they’re going to say, we’ll exclude this claim and we’re not going to be able to help you so you’ll have to go on your way. And there are a whole lot of other things that can be alleged against you besides just a professional violation.
KM: Right. And that was my experience. And we did a couple of podcasts with John Mongogna where we specifically went through the definitions, how to read the policy, exclusions, etcetera. What makes Coverica different than the general malpractice liability? Or what you guys do. Because you do a lot of medical insurance coverage for doctors.
JS: We do a lot of coverage for everyone. We’re really a generalist agency, but we do have some specialties. Medical doctor, hospital, those types of the exposures is one of the specialties we do. What makes us different really you can track along with our mission statement, and that is we treat other people as ourselves and we try to give people good value and give you coverage with no surprises. And that’s one of the things that we really want to have happen so there’s no surprises.
PC: So you have a lot of experience with the health-related industries then in selling them policies. Do you – I’m trying to phrase this properly, so there’s not a rush at the front door, but – do you… I guess a lot of people buy their malpractice insurance from the same guy who sells them their automobile?
JS: They could.
PC: Okay so is it fair to say that most people who sell malpractice aren’t really specialists in it? Is it a side-?
JS: That would probably be an accurate statement. The average insurance agent is very comfortable in the auto realm, and in the property and workers compensation – those type of coverages. But when you start to get into policies that are what we call more manuscript where the companies really change the coverage. An auto policy – virtually every auto policy – is the same. If it’s done by an admitted insurer in the state of Texas, they are going to use almost exactly the same endorsements, maybe get a little tweaking here and there to offer a bell and a whistle, but for the most part you have one policy that you buy over here from one person and it’s exactly the same as the one over there. Professional liability – those types of policies – the insurance companies, depending upon what they want to cover, their experience as a company may be in their trouble areas or what they want to offer as bells and whistles because they want to get a certain type of professional liability risk they’re going to offer special coverages. And so it really is different and you have to be able to read the policy forms and compare if you’re getting quotes from company A, B and C, which form is the best one for that particular client because they’ll each be different.
KM: So my face sheet, this says $1 million / $3 million. I need to do a little bit more research about what that really entails. I think we get stuck – my profession gets stuck – about, “Oh I’ve got $1 million / $3 million so I’m good.”
PC: What’s the problem with that thinking?
JS: That you really won’t understand what you’re covered for. You have to – and to many people it’s going to be like taking a beating – you’re going to have to read your insurance policy.
KM: But, John, I can only afford $300 a year. I’m just getting started.
JS: The problem is that if you pay $300 to get started and to buy that policy, you may not be around in another year or two because something happens that wasn’t covered by your policy and you don’t have the resources to stay in business and to handle the suit.
KM: Right. So getting started on the front in the proper way is key.
JS: Yes. And that’s really with-
KM: Protecting yourself.
PC: What’s the best way to approach – fresh thought here – what’s the best way to approach the purchase of this liability insurance? Do I need to walk in with a mind frame that says, “Let me find out what’s missing in these policies so I can deal with it,” or you do walk in, “I have a checklist of things I know I have to cover and make sure that my bases are covered,” in this particular industry we’re in?
JS: The problem is are you going to know what questions to ask and what coverages to request. So you’re almost at the mercy of the agent that you go to.
PC: Unless somebody like John Sutter or Kathleen tells them what that list is.
JS: That’s very true.
KM: Well, I’d like to segue into that list because you’re talking about the healthcare industry vulnerabilities. As a mental health professional, I’m in the healthcare business and there are some certain vulnerabilities that have kind of-
PC: Alright. But hold that list. Which way of thinking do you think is the best? If I know that list, is it best to walk in with that list or just to walk in and see what’s excluded?
JS: I really think it’s a good idea to have an idea of what kind of coverages you’re looking for. What coverage enhancements sound good to you. Saying, “I really think I’d like to have that,” and give your agent some sort of guide as to what you’re looking for. Because if someone just comes through the front door, gives us a call, and says I’m looking for professional liability insurance and I don’t have much money. I only want to spend $300 or $400, then we’re going to try to do the very best we can for $300 or $400 and hopefully that agent will explain that you’re getting the bare bones policy. Here’s what you need to be aware of that’s not going to be covered that you could buy for a little bit more. The problem we talked about before is there are a lot of agents who have no idea what those options are.
PC: That is your queue, woman.
KM: (Laughs) I totally agree with what you just said. You’re singing my song. So tell me the vulnerabilities because I don’t know what I don’t know. I don’t know what I need to ask. I don’t know what those vulnerabilities are for $300.
JS: First, when you’re dealing with professional liability, the coverage all boils down to what the description of professional services are. So when you explain to your agent, you need to be really clear about what it is that you do in your practice. And you’ll have to fill out an application. I’m sorry-
KM: That app is like a beast.
JS: They can range from a simple one being four pages, to eight to ten pages. And they ask everything. But they’re trying to get information that will help the agent and the company serve you better and underwrite you as a risk and determine the premium you’re going to have. So they are important. And one of the most important portions of that application is the description of services. You need to let them know what you’re doing because, as I’ve said before, if a suit comes in they’re going to look at what’s alleged. They’re going to look at coverage. They’ll look at the description of services and make sure that that all meshes together to give you the coverage that you need.
PC: I don’t even think that we should 1) apologize if there is a form to fill out, a lengthy form, because the environment today – the marketplace – this ain’t your grandma’s mental health field. This is different. That’s the purpose of this whole discussion is because the regulatory environment out there, everybody wants a piece of everything. It’s just more complicated than it used to be and there’s no getting around it.
KM: Well it’s no different from shopping around for your car insurance. My gosh, we had to fill out a five-page form online yesterday to compare apples to apples, but we had to answer all the questions as it pertains to our vehicles and mileage and all that. And it’s the same thing with the professional liability. You’re sending out that application and that professional has to answer the questions.
JS: Even more important than the application you fill out for auto insurance, in professional liability and a few other types of insurance, the application becomes part of the policy. That information that you provided is in effect a warranty that what you told the insurance company is correct. And so if you don’t state something that you should have, or you misstate something.
KM: Even if you lied?
JS: That’s another word for it. So that is very important that the application is filled out. And it does ask for a lot of information, and it’s critical because operations are so different from practice to practice. So the question is, do you have just employee counselors? Do you have contract or sub-contractors that rent space from you and are there? Do you have students that are in your practice? Do you have a medical director? So all of those people need to be identified so that coverage can be crafted to include them all.
KM: And that’s the vulnerable hot spot is the mental health professional who runs the business needs to get ready for the disclosure.
KM: It was real important… yeah. Yeah. So list some of the vulnerabilities that you’re talking about. I mean, my policy is- I feel much better, but there’s certain things to be aware of.
JS: The professional liability is the first part, and that’s just the starting block. Then you look at some of the exclusions or some of the coverages that are available and we can talk about some of those so you have defense of licenses. So if you have a proceeding that’s brought against you, that’s normally not a professional liability claim.
JS: It’s an allegation by the state that you did something incorrectly in violation of your licensing and you might lose it, or you may be sanctioned. So that’s not a normal coverage under professional liability. So you want to see if you can get any defensive licensing procedures, and will normally be a flat amount. Maybe it’s $50, $100, $250,000. But there will be something there specifically for that. There can be subpoena systems so that if you are subpoenaed to testify in a trial, which if you got one brought against you you’re going to be away from your practice. Trials can last quite a while – many days – so you’re going to miss out on an income, maybe travel involved depending on upon where the jurisdiction is. So you can get coverage to help you defray those expenses. A big one is HIPAA violations. That’s not normally part of the straight professional liability policy, but it is a major exposure for anyone in the healthcare field. The government is fast and hard with the penalties that it inflicts on professionals.
KM: They’re relentless with the penalties.
JS: And they multiply and they’re just… it’s a very bad situation to get into. You can buy coverage for that as well. You want to make sure that if you’re really dealing with almost anyone, particularly the youth though, sexual abuse and misconduct which is normally an exclusion under professional liability so you want to buy that back. You want to make sure you have coverage for that because those allegations can be devastating.
PC: What did you call it?
JS: Sexual abuse and molestation coverage.
PC Can we keep this to two-syllable words for me, please?
KM: (Laughs) You’re such a simple guy.
PC: I am.
KM: I know. Well, keep going, John.
JS: Well those are the enhancements that you’d normally get within the policy themselves. Those are the most frequent. You want to make sure that you have, for most professionals we recommend they have those because those are situations that crop up unfortunately all too frequently so you want to make sure you have coverage.
PC: So did we define- in the beginning we defined professional services to be whatever it is. And then the first on the list was the professional liability so that’s the things – I’m asking am I correct? – the professional services, or professional liability are the things that are covered or would be covered?
PC: By the definition.
JS: The policy itself is going to say we’re going to cover you for allegations that you either acted improperly, did something that you should not have done, or didn’t do something you should have as a trained professional for a particular person who suffered because of a result of those actions that you had. So that’s the basis behind professional liability. On the medical side it would be a doctor erring in doing a surgery or making a diagnoses, that professional liability. With a healthcare professional it would be something different but related to their own field.
PC: And these other items on the list – defensive licenses, subpoena assistance, so forth – is that a separate policy to get that covered, or is it an addendum?
JS: It’s an enhancement that you can get to the professional liability policy. These are things that you can ask for. Does this particular carrier offer that?
KM: Additional purchasing on top of the professional liability policy.
JS: Some of them may be thrown in automatically. There are carriers out there that do a really good job that target specific industries that have beefed up their form particularly for professionals in certain categories. So if your agent is pretty familiar with the marketplace then he’ll know that and he’ll take you to an advanced form – what we call a special form – with a lot of the enhancements already built in. That does a couple things. One is it prevents you from having to ask about them, but then also normally helps get the price down because-
KM: The bundling of it.
JS: Right. The bundling does help.
KM: We were talking before we started recording. Talk about cyber violation and hacker threat and all that. You’re seeing a lot of it now.
JS: Okay. If you look at the exclusions – and I always go back to the exclusions on the plicy. They’re very intimidating but a lot of them make sense because if you’re buying a professional liability policy, they’re going to exclude injury to employees. Well, why would they do that? Because that’s workers’ compensation and there’s a whole policy that’s design to do nothing but cover injured workers so you wouldn’t want your professional liability to, nor would you expect it. So a lot of the exclusions just line that out. So your general liability on a lot of policies is excluded because it’s a general liability policy. Workers’ compensation I mentioned. Auto is another one because there are auto policies. Crime in employee dishonesty- that would be another exclusion and another policy that you can purchase and consider. And then, as you mentioned, cyber liability which is right now on everybody’s mind and it is not just Target. Bank of America and people like that that have to face cyber extortion. There are hundreds of thousands of cyber intrusions every day, and they are going after businesses just like yours, just like the people that are listening to this, and they can take several different forms. One of the most common that is very popular, if you can call it that right now, is that a virus will be inserted into your system and it will lock your system down and you will get a little message that says, “Send me $2,000 in Bit Coin or I’ll permanently destroy your hard drive.” So the average person panics but that $2,000 is maybe just an amount that they’re willing to pay and they won’t call the FBI. There are thousands of those occurring every day.
JS: If they ask for a large amount as they did in a hospital in England not too long ago, they were asking for about £2 million or whatever it was. Then it gets the headlines, gets the authorities involved, but just slide under the radar and just ask somebody for $1,000 or $2,000. Their chances of getting that are much better, police won’t know, you unlock it and you go on your merry way. Problem is will they be back and will they be back? Will they be back again to get that $2,000 every time they need $2,000? So cyber takes that form. We have had instances where all of a sudden a CFO will get an email that’s from the CEO that says, “Hey send a bank wire over here. I need $10,000 sent over there.” And the thing is it’s not the CEO sending the email. It looks like it came from his email address and everything, but it’s not. And so they’ll wire transfer the funds and then find out, “Wait a minute. We never did ask that. That wasn’t us. That was someone who broke into the system, monitored and saw the email addresses, saw the email exchanges, got familiar with the way the business operates, and then will send instructions back and forth.” You then of course have an employee who might disrupt your system, who might damage the system, corrupt the data or erase the data. Those type of things are all involved with cyber liability. The liability part of that cyber comes into the fact of if they come in as they did in Target or the banks and they take confidential information and they broadcast it out.
KM: That’s the breach.
JS: That’s the breach.
KM: And you can’t regain your identity if somebody’s stolen your texts, your date of birth and your social security number for crying out loud.
JS: That’s why the government gets involved in theory is because that’s been rampant. And so they say well as the government normally does, we’re going to stop this, we’re going to make sure. And what do they do? They punish the business owner for having the breach as if when the government can get hacked. You’re sitting there and your practice can have the security that’s going to keep the hackers out that got into the National Security Agency. It makes no sense. And the fines as I said are swift and strong. And so are the remedies can be very expensive. If you have credit card information and you accept credit cards in your practice, and a hacker comes in and gets that information, just the fact that there was a breach, you have to report to the government and then every one who might have been, whose records might have been obtained, has to be notified. So you have to let all your customers or clients know that you had a breach. Then you have to buy them identity protection for a year at your cost.
KM: It’s expensive.
JS: And if you don’t report it, or if you’re not fast enough at getting all that done, there’s a nice hefty fine from the government for every day that you’re in violation.
KM: Is that the PCI side of it?
JS: It can be, yes.
KM: Payment Card Industry side of it? Yep.
PC: Thank god the government is here to help us.
KM: Man, I’m relieved.
PC: But I’ve got Norton Antivirus. Isn’t that sufficient?
JS: Probably not. But a good cyber policy might help you along the way.
KM: So you got to find a guy to help do your HIPAA compliance, your PCI compliance, your stealth computer, stealth-ness thing?
JS: One of the big dangers with the HIPAA and the cybers is that they breach and they take the medical records, and that’s another form of extortion. We will publish all of the medical records of all of your clients if you don’t do this.
KM: I did a conference this past weekend and that’s why I honed in on it. There are people in the world that want to hurt you, and that want to steal people’s identifies. And they will do anything to get it. And the healthcare system is an easy target for this in many ways.
JS: We’re better than it used to be. Those violations used to take the form of someone would clean out their records by throwing two file cabinets in the trash can. At least we’ve gone beyond that and we’re electronic, but that opens up a whole new exposure because the little lines, the internet is everywhere.
PC: Well, this is depressing.
JS: But there’s insurance. This makes us happy!
PC: You’re a sales guy! That’s right. So how many different insurance policies are there that a mental health professional really might need to have?
KM: Let’s see. I brought my folder…
JS: 45 minutes, is that all we have? We’ll do five or six segments.
KM: We’re going to have to, John. You know that.
JS: Well, I mentioned several of them so you start with the professional liability. That’s required of you to even have your license, so that’s a great place to start. You want to get that $1 million / $3 million or whatever limit that you choose to get, and that’s the other thing you want to think about: $1 million / $3 million sounds like an awful lot, but you have to also when you look at your policy, you have to look and know a couple things about it because you don’t want to be surprised, which is why it’s part of our mission statement. So one of the things to look at in your policy: Is there a duty for the insurance company to defend? What we call pay-on-behalf-of policy. As opposed to a reimbursement policy, pay-on-behalf is something you want to make sure you have. The insurance company has a duty to defend you for covered claims because a reimbursement policy means you are on your own. When it’s all said and done, then let us know how much you spent and we’ll reimburse you. Now sometimes you can work out an overtime prepayment-
KM: You still have to prove that- you have to take them to task on paying you for that. And that’s another expense on your own to make that claim for the insurance policy.
JS: Well, hopefully an insurance company will just step right up and say we have coverage and liability for you.
KM: John, welcome to my world. That did not happen.
JS: I understand. But being behind the eight ball and having to be a reimbursement, knowing that there’s a claim, you’re going to have to pay for all of your own defense, which is really the expensive part of the coverage. That’s the other thing you need to check is is the defense inside or outside the limit of the policy?
KM: I love that. That’s super key.
JS: You buy $1 million worth of coverage per occurrence, $3 million aggregate. And an aggregate is what the policy will pay in a year, so one claim is $1 million, maximum of $3 million any combination of claims. But the defense can be inside the limit, which means it’s part of that million dollars. So that every dollar that’s spend to pay the attorneys and everything else that are defending you reduces the amount you then have to pay any judgment or settlement. That’s defense within the limit. A defense outside the limit means that no matter what the defense costs are, there’s going to be coverage for those defense costs and your million dollars to pay the judgment or settlement remains intact. Some policies are kind of in between and they’ll say defense is outside the limit, but it’s limited to X amount of dollars. And maybe they’ll say another million to do that. But in general liability policies and a lot of policies, the defense outside the limit is unlimited, so they could spend $3 million defending you for a million dollar settlement. From a practical standpoint, no insurance company is going to spend $3 million to defend you if they can get out for a settlement for much less than that, which is the economic part of the situation. They’re going to look at a claim. They’re going to say, “What are our chances in defending this?” And they will, at some point in time – because every lawsuit has a point when they say you got to go to mediation. So you’ll sit across the table and you’ll talk about what are we willing to settle for? And the insurance company is going to look at that and they’ll come to you and say we can settle this claim for $100,000 and we’re really thinking about doing this. In most professional liability policies you have a right to say no, because professional liability is different from most policies. In most policies you do not have the right to say no. If they settle, they’re going to settle, and they’ll get themselves out the pain on your behalf and they’ll be on their way. But professional liability is dealing with your reputation, your integrity, and so you may be in a situation where you say to the insurance company, “We have to defend this. I feel that strongly about it.” What you need to be aware of is then you are on the hook for some of the cost and some of the potential settlement, because at the end of the day if they could have settled for $100,000 and they got down the path and they defend you and they have to pay $200,000 or $250,000, you’re probably going to pay half of that difference in between there. But if it’s important to you to defend that, then it’s an option at least open to you. So it’s good that the policy gives you that option, but you have to know it and you have to think about and decide is that really what I want to do?
KM: All this knowledge really helps me though. I mean, it can be scary because it is. This is your professional livelihood and your liability is at stake and your integrity and all the kind of stuff. But it helps me know what I need to do in my daily operations so I don’t have the potential to get in that position. Like, what kind of insurance add-ons to get, how I need to do my daily business set up or how I deal with my clients or what I need to know about the professionals that are in my office. I mean, this information can be really helpful in a lot of ways.
PC: I’ve got about 187 more questions but we’re almost out of time. I want to go back and revisit – we’ll have to do it next time – is a list of policies that are out there. I’m a graphic guy. I have to draw pictures and I have to get this all laid out nice and pretty. And we’re going to do it, by gosh. So we’ll do that next time. Any final thoughts?
KM: I think… I encourage you to really pull out your malpractice liability policy that you have for that $300 and really look at what it’s giving you and what it’s not giving you.
PC: And then call…
JS: Call me. Call John Sutter at Coverica. That would be great. I’d be happy to help you.
PC: What’s your phone number, John?
PC: You have a website?
JS: We do. www.coverica.com
PC: Alright, good. Last question: What would you advise somebody whose new to the game – maybe they’re still in school or they’re out and they’re an internet and they’re mentally ramping up to start a business – and they come to you and you lay all this out for them, and it’s not the $300 that the prof told them it was going to be. And they say, “I can’t afford that.” What would your advice be to them? And remember they’re about as young as one of your oldest grandchildren.
JS: That is a really hard part of what we do, is when I deal with business owners, when I deal with professionals, and you talk with them and you say, “Here’s what I recommend.” And there is a cost to each of those recommendations. Each business owner- this young person coming up that’s looking to get into buying his very first policy, is going to have to make a decision. All I can do is try to counsel them as you said, as I would my own granddaughter or one of my daughters or son-in-laws and say, “You need to be really smart about how you buy this. If you need to cut something out for a little bit, this has the potential of saving you and your business.” But at the end of the day, I’ve had businesses still tell me, “No, I’m not going to buy that,” and I’d actually probably do is then have you sign that you rejected that coverage. If I feel that strongly about it, I’m going to have your acknowledge that you did not want it.
PC: Kathleen, what would your answer be? Same question: If they can’t afford this… see you’ve been down this road before and you’ve needed all this stuff.
KM: They can’t afford not to do this. This is one of the first financial decisions, after they probably do their business setup, that follows. So my encouragement to them is you got into this business, you have to think as a business. This is part of your business startup cost. Don’t do any more trainings. Save your money to do proper malpractice liability insurance because you’re just getting started, and like John said: This is integrity. Integrity 101 in my mind means your business set up and your professional liability are the first two things on the list. Period.
PC: Now your statement assumes that they have the cash but they’ve prioritized it for something else. What if somebody just truly, the cash does not exist in their account?
KM: Then they shouldn’t be practicing.
PC: Thank you very much. John, it’s been fun.
JS: It has been. Thank you very much.
PC: There’s lots more to do here, and we’re going to tap you again.
JS: I look forward to it.
KM: Thank you, John, very much.
JS: Thank you.
PC: Kathleen, we’ll see you.
KM: Bye, Phillip.
PC: Thank you much.
KM: Thank you.